Then I discovered I was not, and it was like a moment of deliverance from a mighty weight that had been pressing me down. Of course the bewildered question of why didnt God? will inevitably come up. http://www.pbs.org/thisemotionallife/topic/happiness/helping-others. The purpose of these posts is to build understanding, if thatis at allpossible. Im sorry about the experiences youve had with Calvinists. [footnote]For more on what Calvinism espouses, see https://laikostheologos.com/introduction-to-soteriology/%5B/footnote%5D. You may be sad that we all dont get what you get about Calvinism (and Im sad that you dont see it my way lol), but we dont need to dwell there. Even though I rejected Calvinism, I was not (nor have I ever been) a universalist, I still believed in Gods sovereignty, etc. Athanasian nope, that seems tove been written by someone (probably not Athanasius, by all accounts) barking up entirely the wrong end of the stick. When people have been hurt by something they have come to realize was wrong, they will present their disagreements with fervor. HERE AHURA-MAZDA, THERE AHRIMAN!. They tend to carry on for a long time about it and end up calling people heretic (Ive seen this done on both sides of the debate though ) as the conversation ensues. 1554-1612), who was trained in theology in a university (Cambridge), and Thomas Helwys (ca. Their scholarship seems smug and oddly ineffectual (quoted by one mother) and yes, it later became apparent that The Way was actually doctrinally aberrant and yet through this article you were drawn to Jesus, so maybe this suggests God sometimes uses unlikely means to create new believers? Since so many Calvinists believe everything in this life is decreed, it would mean that God decreed you to write/create this blog from before the foundations of the world, so how can they object to you doing so? Learn as I go, mistakes & big mess. 1. It needs to be dealt with directly and honestly, a complicated complex mature topic. Calvinism Jesse Morrell. Considering the amount of people we are seeing who have had these experiences, I wish the accusations about misrepresenting the Reformed/Calvin/Tulip systems would take a back seat. John DeBrine and Youthtime wad usually held at Tremont Temple but occasionally at Park St. Church. This was no emotional, short term thing. (Also, it would mean that God forced people to sin, since some of our thoughts, words, and deeds, are sinful. Going to church in the north during those days was different. I figured (maybe arrogantly, but I prefer to think of it as optimism) that I could correct a few misconceptions I saw and then the whole discussion could just go away. +++++++++++++++++. 16th-century Calvinist and Reformed theologians, 17th-century Calvinist and Reformed theologians, 18th-century Calvinist and Reformed theologians, 19th-century Calvinist and Reformed theologians, 20th-century Calvinist and Reformed theologians, 21st-century Calvinist and Reformed theologians, 12th-century Eastern Orthodox theologians, 13th-century Eastern Orthodox theologians, 14th-century Eastern Orthodox theologians, 15th-century Eastern Orthodox theologians, 16th-century Eastern Orthodox theologians, 17th-century Eastern Orthodox theologians, 18th-century Eastern Orthodox theologians, 19th-century Eastern Orthodox theologians, 20th-century Eastern Orthodox theologians, 21st-century Eastern Orthodox theologians, Roman Catholic theologians by nationality, List of Catholic philosophers and theologians, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Lists_of_Christian_theologians&oldid=1083295880, Lists of theologians and religious studies scholars, Short description is different from Wikidata, Pages using sidebar with the child parameter, Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License 3.0, Eastern Orthodox theologians by nationality, This page was last edited on 18 April 2022, at 03:54. Every kindness & every meanness I do sends ripples outward and I birth the future by my words and deeds. The WCF clearly states that God is not the author of sin. . Eventually I became a Christian during an episode of Star Trek while reading a LifeMagazine article about "The Groovy Christians of Rye, New York." In that case they are probably reading an interpretation of what Calvin actually wrote. CALVIN! Admittedly, Calvin also had a lot of temporal power, which he did not always use wisely. Buuuuuut the problem with this is that trying to pin a Calvinist down on what doctrines they actually believe is like trying to hold a wriggling cat using hands stuck in oven mitts (not that wed be putting the cat in the overgross, and, uh, cruel). Does not a little yeast leaven the whole batch? And when you [Calvinists whom he is addressing] quote Charles Spurgeons words equating Calvinism and the gospel (a place where I believe the great Spurgeon got it wrong), you are not saying that those of us who do not subscribe to all the points of Calvinism fail to believe the gospel. Im sure no one here would like someone to denounce their beliefs by stating them in a way that they dont accept. (Okay, Calvin-haters, have at me for this unforgivable understatement. They MUST insist you agree with themit is implied in the very protest to my assertion: You dont understand me; you cant understand me; thus, your only response is to AGREE that you could be wrong. Jesus statement that my food is to do the will of him who sent me applies in our context. Change). Aslan completely domesticated and caged within those 2400 pages of Perfect Doctrine and Parsed Theology? And when I talk of Calvinism, Im not talking about the way he viewed the authority of the church. This contradictory appeal to both mystery and sound orthodoxy allows then to move the doctrinal yardstick back and forth on any whim or fancy because all they have to do is remind us all that there isnt any real way we can ever know for sure, so we might as well simply agree with them so as not to cause an unpleasant ruckus and create division or risk hurting feelings or whatever other obstacle to real debate they can think up. And I kind of doubt youre on call to give your Testimony in church; it just doesnt jibe with the Conventional Christianese Testimony. All of the people Ive met who have TAUGHT about Calvinism are clear on the definition, though. One reason is because I have gone through periods where I questioned Gods goodness because of certain events in my life and in those of others. The Baptist tradition is one of the most diverse in Protestant Christianity. As Ive said, Id prefer not to discuss Calvinism at all. Your blog has been extremely helpful to me as well, in sorting many things out. (Well, maybe those who are committed to doing evil to others arent asking those questions, but). Lin wrote: There are days I really have to remind myself that God still very much loves people who have little love or respect for me or other Arminian Christians. Breastmilk is the perfect food for babies and formula cant touch this aspect of it -scientists have analyzed the composition of the milk weeks/months and have found that the structure changes to meet babies need at each stage of development. What bothers me is that your leaders disregard my objections, calling me barely a Christian or saying that Olson is not a Christian.. Off topic but growing up and even today my enduring friendships are with folks who had at least one immigrant parent.. one each from Greece, Italy and Albania. They want pure milk easy to digest, soothing, warms their tummy, meets their needs, gives comfort, nourishes them and helps them grow. The title suggests hes going to argue that something I dont agree with and Cavlinists historically do not believe is false. I will never go back to Calvinism because I cant recall a single moment that I felt any certainty of Gods love for me in that system. How can a bridge be built when the side you are attempting to reach constantly moves its shoreline back and forth in an effort to maintain its monolithic sovereignty as THE only standard of true Christian thought? If the person makes the comment because he/she believes its important that others should know that there are people who can be hurt by that conversation in real life, how should that affect the online discussion? These same people are taken to task for twisting the Calvin/Tulip/Reformed beliefs on blogs. . Craigs got it right. He shouldnt be let out of his cage yet. To give a sense of scale for word count well over 600,000: Rule of thumb for both manuscript format and mass-market paperback is 250 words/page. That is how important this is and why I posted my article in the first place. I myself am a man, and know all too well, the sins and short-comings of mankind. Tell othersthat such thinking hurts you but do not expect them to understand. What content does your faith have?. if man does NOT get to decided the level of his depravity (by knowing good from evil and choosing it) then God must decide FOR himwhich means, again, that not being as bad as you could be is irrelevant. Yet, no matter how hard I tried to understand, I just couldn't get there. If you read non-Calvinism is evil youd probably feel a desire to defend your viewpoint too. So Sad. I inferred, from the context in which you placed it, that by child you meant someone innocent of knowledge, using the examples you gave as metaphors, since, of course, Jesus didnt tell us to believe in those things. Thats why. Today I am addressing a post to non-Calvinists and will do the same for Calvinists on Monday. J. Vernon McGee 19. But maybe there is just too much pain and hurt for that to be possible. And heres something I realized: I HATE the word Calvinist. Im sure we will have our playful little jabs, and he doesnt mind dishing it. John Calvin, Paul Helm John Calvin W. Robert Godfrey Crossway is a not-for-profit Christian ministry that exists solely for the purpose of proclaiming the gospel through publishing gospel-centered, Bible-centered content. Not really thinking things though. So far, we both agree. Just an observation. In fact, I've heard him preach stuff that would set Calvinists' hair (and beards) on fire. There is a reason there has been a debate for centuries. I didnt say childish. Thank you for letting me know what you think Jesus meant. He exercises his power and sovereignty over all created things. I err on the side of allowing too much now, just because the value of finally being able to have a voice is so huge! A secondary cause is always subservient to the primary cause, which is God. Fine- no one is calling him out. The word Gospel which meant so much to me as a new Christian, now seems a bit foreign. *If we disagree, let us disagree on what we see in Scripture, not on our own sense of right and wrong. @ Julie Anne: I became a Christian at the age of 17, having been raised in Salem, Massachusetts, in what was essentially a non Christian home. A hearty AMEN numo. My point was this idea that God has foreordained every word I say, therefore, I cannot be wrong. Why the pessimism? This is what Calvinists need to come to terms with. Everything. And those who might still reject it, might also be rejecting it for the wrong reasons and miss out on some important wrestling that could help them grow. Im not saying I agree with everything in the WCF, but its a really large hurdle to overcome to show that something it directly states is misrepresentative of Reformed thology/Calvinism without a mountain of evidence to support it. It simply makes it harder for people who are trying to recover from abuse, and continue to believe that God is good and loves them, to want to engage in a search for Truth. I always thought of it as the Good News of the death and Resurrection of Jesus which resulted in the forgiveness of sins for those of us who believe. However, there are a lot of us (from Liturgical Protestant churches, as well as the RCC, Orthodox churches, the German/Dutch anabaptist churches etc.) In fact, I would have said that TWW was more anti-Calvinist than it was anti-Abuse. Also, Jesus talked a lot about hell. This is my personal Faithlife account. It's not mine. Theres sort of a flip saying that goes get 10 Calvinists in a room and youll get 30 different opinions on what Calvinism is> Okay, that saying applies in many circumstances :). For a son to commit suicide? We may diverge a bit here. And, lets face it, which side was harsher on your blog? And, for that matter, why is his style so difficult? We are glad that you do. As far as truth is concerned, I believe that it reflects what the Bible says is the result of Adams sin. Again, living in a 3 dimensional world, that makes little sense. I might get around to it, at some point. Yet looking at a book's cover, or even . The greatness of God must be understood in a different way because this construct caused harm so deep that it tore into the core of me and made me wish for eternal death. By 'not real' I mean that the meaning is destroyed in the overall thought of the clause or sentence. The non Christian world will know there is a God by our love for other Christians. They have come into the world for such a time as this to rescue us Biblical goobers. It depends, some advocates of Reformed theology say, on whether Christians on both sides are willing to tiptoe through the TULIP-the acrostic for five doctrinal points that set apart Calvinists. Hmmm all I can say is, it depends on the individual and in what way theyre hurting. They find it sustaining. Thank you! Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding. I think that our doctrinal systems are mans attempt to understand based on what God has presented to us. Does that make my stance clearer? If I were there when a Calvinist or any other professing believer (or atheist or whatever) told someone who was suffering or grieving something that was sure to make the person feel worse, I can practically guarantee that I would shut that person up and have words with him/her. We can just debate doctrine. I disagree on some points with everyone I respect. These accusations are often followed by the fact that although they cant explain away the opposing verses, nonetheless they know their view is the truth. The correct understanding of any belief system shouldnt be of importance when Jesus says to come to him as a child. When I, a Calvinist (as much as would prefer not to wear the title), hear someone say Calvinism is evil, yes I want to defend it. Weeps with you. Below is an OP from 2006. On a site that deals with domestic abuse, it can very easily for discussion to descend into man hating. CALVIN!. It wasnt until they tried to recruit me to take an $85.00 course to learn to speak in tongues that I actually started studying my Bible. Youre more than welcome at my table, Jeff. In addition to Dees remarks on unity, Id also like to add the following: we all accept the historic Christian creeds of the early church (Apostles, Nicene, Athanasian) and the church councils, which means we all accept the most important teachings on Christs Person, His Deity and resurrection, and the teachings on the Trinity. It buys you nothing in light of Gods absolute control. What about what God foreordained someone else to say that is different. This item can do it all and do it all the better than the rest. 9. Its very difficult and exhausting having a conversation with people who claim you never, ever get their views correct. Once again, I was struck by Olson's response. There are few things harder to deal with than love that is condescending and devoid of respect. And in their zeal, they often miss obvious signs that are bringing the hurt person even deeper into pain. @ Junkster: Ham- as a proof text for poor science. (Putting it mildly!!!). Indeed. [1] [2] Im not doubting what you say, but PLEASE (and this goes for everyone) try to document this type of thing. I am not trying to hurt or be cruelI am trying to say that ideas must have basis, and one does not get to declare an idea and then refuse to defend it rationally by appealing to humanitys inherent inability to understand it, and THEN proceed to give examples of why what is a contradiction in the doctrine really isnt a contradiction. An infant does not want, nor desire steak. To me, there is a huge difference. Here is my retort to everything you both said. Accept that Calvinists findpeace in trusting that God has orchestrated even the specific tragedies in life. LOLI am much more hyper in my comments than they are. For example, the word total in Total Depravity is an absolutethere is no such rational idea as partly total, which is what some Calvinists want to say when they declare that humans are not as bad as they could beas if this matters in the dualistic Calvinist paradigm: God is Good, and youare not. We are brothers and sisters in Christ. Best Overall non calvinist systematic theology: This non calvinist systematic theology is the king of the hill. I know there are some whose solution is that God limits Himself so that He is not all-knowing; I dont see this in Scripture. 1 Systematic Theology Berkhof, Louis (Author) English (Publication Language) But I respect that he does what he does for the same reason I do: we believe that people are at stake, and suffering is the penalty for losing the debate. Id prefer not to use the word to describe myself. In response to the devastation of a hurricane: @JohnPiper: Your sons and daughters were eating and a great wind struck the house, and it fell upon them, and they are dead.Job 1:19 The ideas of bad and good are meaningless in Calvinist doctrine. Sovereign Grace Ministries Those of us who were vocally opposed to the leadership during the days of the Brent Detwiler Wiki Wars were quietly asked to leave, and they held open the door for me and my family with dulcet platitudes and smiling faces. In light of this, RC understands that free will cannot possibly be free, by definition. Who did he think he was? Three of their principal concerns were believer's baptism, sectarian withdrawal from society, and religious liberty. I want us non-Calvinists to figure out how to get along with our Calvinist brothers and sisters. The assuredness of the approach is arrogant. Probably originated with Calvinists during the Reformation Wars or their descendants the Puritans; as an answer to the question Am I One of The Elect? Using Im Rich! Loving hurting people in real ways (listening/caring/supporting) can help SAVE lives, emotionally, spiritually, and even physically. Need I say that an airtight perfect system spanning 2400+ pages and written by a young lawyer smacks of know-it-all with a bit of OCD? Every puzzle piece in its perfect place, no room for any doubt LOVE, this comment at a whole, Muff. Other authors, some who have made extensive contributions in the fields of biblical and theological studies, include Kenneth Mathews, Tremper Longman III, Walt Kaiser, Chuck Quarles, Stan Porter, Malcolm Yarnell III, and David Dockery. If, however, a viewpoint *in itself*, genuinely hurts someone, it is wrong. I read CS Lewis, Francis Schaeffer and many others. And thus, we are left with the only real proof that anyone has been given the truth: by agreeing with THEM. Whatever part of the stream a Calvinist has adopted (and there are several streams), calling ones self a Calvinist means taking responsibility for the parts of the broader construct that are damaging. When a baby is born, mamas milk comes out as colostrum a very thick yellow substance perfectly designed to meet babies need exactly at the newborn stage of life. Can we not make allowance for Gods ways to be different from ours? We were just glad that othersunderstood where we were coming from. I just ordered the book! This is such a profound conversation and so close to my heart! This is merely a nice way of saying that God hasnt enlightened you to the truth. ), but if taken to its logical outcomes, yes, at the end of the day, Cal really does teach X. These are things that we can work on together, no matter our view on election. 8520 / YR. New Geneva Theological Seminary - Colorado. I will say that as a fairly new Lutheran, I have REALLY been blessed by the attitude that as a woman, I am relating directly to Christ and am responsible for my own theology. @ JeffB: The article you listed included the following quote from Mohler:Mohler says the seminarys current prosperity is a sign of Gods blessing on an institution that rejected liberal trends in society and returned to more conservative social ideas. I could also pile up a lot of influential non-theologians here (C. S. Lewis, Billy Graham, Bill Bright), but I'm assuming your question was probing for a theological communicator of Packer's stature. The guy in the video I linked to above (or the host of the channel, I forget which after I watched the first video, I watched about five more by the bearded guy who owns the channel) mentioned WCF, too, and pointed out what he considered to be flaws with WCFs statements, which he seemed to think are in agreement with some Calvinistic views about God decreeing stuff/ predestination. http://www.seattlepi.com/news/us/article/Head-of-Southern-Baptist-school-marks-20-years-4780941.php. Can we not make allowance for Gods ways to be different from ours? @ Jeff S: I know you know how to do that because Ive seen you do it at ACFJ. But, as Ilook back, I am gratified bythe number of friends who have stayed the course through the years. You wrote: Jeff [S], whether it was my misperceptions or real perceptions of the doctrine that you hold dear to your heart, someone trying to correct my faulty ideas of Calvinism isnt going to benefit me whatsoever if I am at the emotional/spiritual end of my rope. All this does is affirm theism itself. Breathes words of consolation deep inside you. Far better, in my opinion, to grieve openly and honestly, and know that the God of all compassion weeps with us. Does this sound like a CULT(TM) to you? A stupendously important point, Jeff. Ultimately I think TULIP is the science behind how salvation operates, and knowing that should breed thankfulness and humility in me. The guy wearing glasses in the video gave an interesting explanation, though he chose to use the Fall in the Garden, rather than a more contemporary example. I dont know. 21st-century Calvinist and Reformed theologians Eastern Orthodox [ edit] 12th-century Eastern Orthodox theologians 13th-century Eastern Orthodox theologians 14th-century Eastern Orthodox theologians 15th-century Eastern Orthodox theologians 16th-century Eastern Orthodox theologians 17th-century Eastern Orthodox theologians @ Daisy: Nope, not a Cal. Even though I have now separated myself from that belief system, connecting with those words brought me right back to those intense feelings of God was right there watching me get abused and didnt do a darn thing about it. So I posted my abuse story/Calvin connection and have tried to keep that thread safe. The Calvinism debate thread is a great place to really get into the nitty gritty of those tough issues. The following are theologians, listed alphabetically, who are non-Calvinist in their soteriology. Michael Brown David Jeremiah Dave Hunt J. W. MacGorman E. Y. Mullins Herschel Hobbs W. T. Conner Frank Stagg Fisher Humphreys Bert Dominy Ken Keathley Norm Geisler Alister McGrath David Bentley Hart Mike Licona @ JeffB: I appreciate the dialog. We are very clear that we do not see men as the only abusers nor abuse inherently a gender issue. Is proud of you. For non-Calvinists, this can get very confusing since each claims that theirs is the real interpretation of Calvin. What is the positional difference of man before God between a little TOTAL depravity and total total depravity? You might argue that with only a little bacteria, you might only get sick, but not die. But I do think it is very important to not shut people down if they dont tow the party line. This can apply to spiritual things, to living life with God, Jesus, Holy Spirit. I dont want to convince anyone of a certain brand of Christianity. This is what some people have heard their entire life. Ah, elastigirl, I have missed you and your wonderful thoughts. But what I am hoping is that you, as well as me, can instead understand the objections so well that you can begin to understand why a few quotes from Calvin, along with a few Bible verses, do not answer the deeper questions. I know. And those who have been left behind when theyve fallen in between, On the altar of the simple road is the blood of the messy gray The list 21st-century Calvinist and Reformed theologians includes Gary North (Christian Reconstructionist), Stephen Tong, D. A. Carson, John F. MacArthur and R. C. Sproul. I DO know of Calvinists who stay away from these blogs excuse they feel they are unwelcome, even though they very much wish to fight against abuse. God, help us to love. whats so complicated about that? As a woman in ministry you represent the focus of much of the Neo-Calvinist YRR contempt, and when you overcome that evil with good, then Jesus is visible. I want people to love God and love their neighbors. Quote - "A pure heart won't get us out of conflict and controversy. They are harmed by the teachings they sat under and then accused of misrepresentation when they blog about it. First list Randy Alcorn Thabiti Anyabwile Tom Ascol Voddie Baucham Joel Beeke Alistair Begg Jon Bloom Loraine Boettner James Pettigru Boyse John Calvin (of course) D.A. @ JeffB: Luther also wrote a great deal about Romans 8 and similar passages. And requires even more general kindness and that continued diet in that warm kitchen. Wasnt that we didnt know we had differences but we were Christians who were in it together. But never, ever did it raise anything except a good discussion. @ Muff Potter: When I read the Bible, I find a lot more there about Gods love (and forgiveness a symptom of his love) and our responsibility to share that love (e.g., in the OT prophets writings we have) than I do about his glory or his sovereignty. Do you not understand non Calvinists read the scriptures with the intent of honestyseeing what it says instead of wanting it to conform to our beliefs yet reading the very same scriptures with due diligence, do not come to a believe (amongst other things)in double predestination. I want people to love God and love their neighbors. They will tend to use hyperbole to make their point. I am much more hyper in my comments than they are. That means doing it even when the other person does not reciprocate. by allowing them). If it does, then Im find with that. And as you say, Nick, as soon as we have settled out of shock, we need robust physiotherapy which is psychotherapy or intensive spiritual counseling, and thats hard long work; not a job for babies. I am sorry those times seemed to have been exchanged for dogma over Christian friendship. Of course Calvinism is not the only theological construct that has been used to hurt people. Infused? But those of us who are labeled as misconstrue-ers of Calvinism are simply pointing out the logical flaws in their arguments. It is used to define gender roles, the age of the earth, eschatology, and election. And I kind of doubt youre on call to give your Testimony in church; it just doesnt jibe with the Conventional Christianese Testimony. Had childhood friends who were Nazarene and Presbyterian and myself., Plymouth Brethren. Bring them to heaven? Some of the things he did/wrote/said kind of raise alarms, if Im honest the whole Servetus Thing, for instance, doesnt make anybody look good however you spin it.
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